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2 INTERVIEW 'Nobody wants a new
cold war' US Secretary
of Defense Robert Gates
US
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates says the United
States is not in a new cold war with Moscow and
that Washington still holds out hope that
democracy will take hold in Russia. In Prague to
discuss US missile-defense plans, Gates told
Ulrich Speck and Brian Whitmore of Radio Free
Europe/Radio Liberty that despite rising tensions,
the US can work with Russia on a number
of
issues.
RFE/RL: Over the
past year, Russia has become increasingly
aggressive. There's been a lot of saber-rattling.
There are a lot of conflicts over issues like
Kosovo and Iran. I'm wondering if it still makes
sense to call Russia a strategic partner of the
United States.
Robert Gates:
I think our approach should be to consider Russia
a strategic partner until and unless it proves
otherwise. There has been a lot of rhetoric, but
in terms of specific actions so far, the Russians
have not taken any irreversible decisions. And
they have, in some areas, continued to play a
constructive role. So my view is, we should
continue to characterize them as a strategic
partner. We should continue to work with them
where we can. And we should try and persuade them
of our point of view in those areas where we
disagree.
RFE/RL: Some
observers even talk of a new cold war. You have a
long experience dealing with Russia: how would you
compare the old days dealing with the Soviet Union
and dealing with Russia today?
Gates: We were engaged in a
worldwide conflict with the Soviet Union. Often,
it was through surrogates. But after all, at a
certain point, we were dealing with 40,000 Cuban
troops in Ethiopia, 40,000 Cuban troops in Angola.
We had Cuba exporting revolution throughout
Central and South American with huge Soviet
subsidies. We had the Soviets subsidizing
anti-government movements in Europe. We were
dealing with the Warsaw Pact, this country wasn't
free - the Czech Republic wasn't free. Neither was
Poland, neither were Bulgaria or Romania or any of
the others in Eastern Europe. We had an open-ended
arms race going on with them. They were spending a
huge amount more on their military then than they
are now.
So, I mean, it was a very
different world, and while some of the rhetoric
has been strong, the reality, it seems to me, is
that there are areas where we can cooperate and
where we are cooperating. And we just don't have
anything like the global competition or the global
conflict that existed, and where people were
worried that we had our missiles pointed at each
other all the time. I just think it's a completely
different world, and as I told the Wehrkunde
Conference in Munich in February, nobody wants a
new cold war. And I don't think the Russians do,
either.
RFE/RL: Going along
the same lines of cooperation, the US very much
needs Russia's cooperation on a number of issues -
again, Kosovo, Iran, and so on. And, given
Russia's authoritarian tilt, this implies, on the
one hand, that maybe we must work with the leaders
in place there. Could you speak to the
contradiction between classical "realpolitik" and
the US president's "freedom agenda"? Is there a
contradiction in our policy toward Russia, given
the fact that we need Russia so badly?
Gates: No, I don't think so.
And I would characterize it differently, actually.
It's not just the United States that's dealing
with Russia. Kosovo is above all a European
matter, it's a NATO [North Atlantic Treaty
Organization] matter, it's for all of the
Europeans - the European Union, and so on. So it's
not just the United States trying to get the
Russians to take a particular point of view on
Kosovo, but it's all of Europe that is in this.
And it's the same way on some of these other
challenges that we face where we're talking with
the Russians. Their rhetoric in terms of the
Intermediate[-range] Nuclear Forces [INF] Treaty,
in terms of the Conventional Forces in Europe
[CFE] Treaty: these are agreements with all of the
states in Europe, for the most part, and certainly
in the CFE, and the Europeans clearly are
concerned about the INF Treaty.
So, I
guess my first problem is, this is not just a
US-Russian issue; this is an issue about how
Russia is going to interrelate with the rest of
Europe. Does Russia wish to be a part of Europe
and wish to be a strategic partner with the United
States? I think they do. And I think that the
increasing business investments, both in Russia
and Russia in Europe, can illustrate that that's
true. I don't think there's any contradiction with
the president's freedom agenda.
The
reality is, Russia's a very different place today
than it was under the Soviet Union. Is it more
authoritarian than we would wish, is there greater
limitation on freedom? Yes. But the reality is
that it's very different than in the Soviet days.
And frankly, as I said in my speech on democracy
in Williamsburg a few weeks ago, it takes time to
build the institutions of democracy. Just having
an election doesn't mean you have a democracy. So
these institutions have to grow. And you're
looking at a country in Russia that in a thousand
years of its history has not had a democracy. So
my view is, I think we need to encourage the
development of freedom in Russia, we need to
encourage the development of democratic
institutions, but also think we need to understand
that those things take time.
RFE/RL: In encouraging the
development of democratic institutions in Russia,
does the US have any leverage, any influence? What
can Washington do to help from the outside to
increase these freedoms?
Gates: Well, we didn't think
we had any leverage when we went to Helsinki in
1975, and it ended up playing a major part in the
collapse of the Soviet Union and in the liberation
of Eastern Europe. So I think that we can't
underestimate a certain moral authority. And also,
I think, we have to be persistent. After all, our
engagement in the Cold War with the Soviet Union
lasted almost half a century.
RFE/RL: Russian President
Vladimir Putin clearly wants to establish a sphere
of influence in what the Russians call the
near-abroad, parts of the former Soviet Union.
Georgia's bid to join NATO and to cozy up to the
United States has clearly caused a lot of anxiety
and anger in the Kremlin. And I'm wondering: How
dedicated is Washington to Georgia's entry into
NATO, and conversely, is it conceivable that
Georgia could become a bargaining chip in the
larger US-Russia relationship?
Gates: I don't think we
should link these things, in the relationship, at
all; we'll judge these events on their own merits,
these developments. Georgia in NATO, other nations
in NATO, have to be evaluated on their own merits.
In my view, you don't tie them to other issues; I
wouldn't link them at all.
RFE/RL: So you would say
there's not a risk of Georgia turning into a
bargaining chip?
Gates: I
don't think so, no.
RFE/RL:
There's concern in Tbilisi ...
Gates: We certainly don't
intend to let it become one.
RFE/RL: Ukraine also has a
growing interest, or a long-standing interest, to
join NATO, even if the domestic support is weaker
than in Georgia. How do you judge Ukraine's chance
to get into NATO in the next years?
Gates: Well, I think that's
probably not a near-term likelihood. There clearly
is some interest in Ukraine. But there's also, as
I understand it, still substantial domestic
opposition to it. So I think we'll just have to
see how things evolve.
RFE/RL: A lot of analysts
think that Russia is creating an alternative
security architecture in the world. This came up
after there was talk if Serbia loses Kosovo, that
perhaps Serbia would cozy up to Russia, and they
are saying, "Here's a new architecture, and we
invite you to join." Is this a cause of concern in
the defense and security community in the United
States?
Gates: It's not a
concern to me because I don't think it'll be
successful, even if they are trying it. Serbia
knows that its interests are with the Europeans
and with the European Union, not with some kind of
linkage back to the East. Russia and
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