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INTERVIEW
A search for unity
Omar Bakri Mohammed
Interview by Mahan Abedin

my time with Hizbut Tahrir and Al-Muhajiroun we relentlessly targeted British universities. Our objective was to raise Islam to the pinnacle of the global agenda.

MA: Do you think Al-Muhajiroun also had a negative effect?

OBM: Yes, of course. Our ideas are flawless because they are divine; they are rooted in the Koran and Sunna. However, the implementation was never flawless because we are human beings and as such we are not infallible. The implementation process is subject to error and mistakes. This is the difference between

 
application and implementation.

MA: What were your biggest mistakes?

OBM: I believe we committed two major mistakes. First, we did not build bridges with so-called moderate Muslim organizations. We allowed these groups to believe the media propaganda against Al-Muhajiroun and other radical organizations. This was because of two reasons. Firstly, some of us proudly believed that we were completely in the right regarding our activities and methods. Second, the leaders of these so-called moderate groups did not want anything to do with us. They would not even meet us so that we can at least have a chance to explain ourselves. But in any case I think we should have done more to reach out to these groups.

MA: Have you now revised your opinion about these groups?

OBM: No, because I believe they inflicted a great amount of damage on the Muslim community by distorting Islam and not explaining Islam properly to the Muslims and the wider British community. Their approach was to tell the Muslims to always turn the other cheek and if someone takes their shirt they should turn round and give them their trousers too! This is not Islam. Having said that, we should have done more to reach out to these people. To realize your maximum potential in the community you have to engage all the groups and sects.

MA: What was your second mistake?

OBM: We allowed the media to get away with distorting our messages and goals. Whenever the media lied about us we simply presented the facts to the police. We never bothered to publicly refute the media's lies. This damaged us both within the community and wider British society. We allowed the media to develop a profile on us and after some time it was very difficult for us to effectively challenge this profile. The media had created an impenetrable negative perception about Al-Muhajiroun. If we had taken action earlier then things might have turned out very differently.

MA: You have now been away from the UK for nearly three years. A lot has happened in the Muslim community since then. What do you make of recent developments, for instance government attempts to sideline the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the rise of new organizations?

OBM: The British government has proven what we have been saying all along, that man-made laws in the West are just as bad as man-made laws in the east. Western democracy and Eastern tyranny are the two sides of the same coin. The Muslim community today is under a massive siege by the government and its cronies. Consequently the threat of terrorism is higher now than ever before. The so-called moderates in the Muslim Council of Britain are simply reaping what they sowed back in the 1990s.

When the MCB first emerged they were the eyes and ears of the government. They did not realize that in due course the government would abandon them for even more moderate and treacherous groups like this newly-established Quilliam Foundation. I believe groups even worse than the Quilliam Foundation and the Sufi Muslim Council will emerge in due course, that is because we have a Hadith saying that graver falsehood always follows falsehood. The MCB used to call us extremists but they never examined whether we were extreme from the truth or extreme from the falsehood.

If we were extreme from the truth then we deserved condemnation but clearly we were extreme from the falsehood. Recent events have vindicated our ideas and approach. But now unfortunately I am no longer in the UK to play a useful role. However, I believe we succeeded in laying the seeds for robust Islamic activism in the UK. Nevertheless, the most disgruntled and radical youths are currently not receiving any proper guidance and direction. So they have turned to Sheikh Google [ie the Internet] for direction. This has increased the threat of terrorism. These people will adopt and implement what is suitable for Afghanistan in the UK.

MA: You mentioned the Quilliam Foundation. What do you make of this organization?

OBM: I think they are opportunists. They are using counter-extremism rhetoric as cover for their personal problems with HT. The only serious personality there is Majid Naawaz. Majid Nawaaz spent some time in an Egyptian prison. Once he was freed and returned to the UK he expected to have a leadership position in HT. Instead he encountered new faces among the leadership who were unwilling to accommodate his ambitions.

From that point on he developed personal grudges and it all went downhill from there. This is in stark contrast to the events that led to my departure from HT in 1996. I developed theological disputes with HT since I came to the conclusion that their Aqeedah [creed] was not fully compatible with the heritage of the Salaf [the pious ancestors]. I became a Salafi and had no choice but to leave HT. But I still believe HT is a very serious party which is determined to bring about change. I have no problem with their method to re-create the Islamic caliphate.

MA: Do you think HT shares some of the blame since they haven't developed effective mechanisms to deal with personal grievances and other forms of dissidence?

OBM: Yes, when a member has a problem HT does not deal with it effectively. Whenever someone reports to his supervisor that he has a problem they advise him or her to write to the leadership committee. But the leadership committee would rarely address their concerns. But when I was a leader in HT I used to deal with all these issues directly, thus nipping these problems in the bud. I was trying to develop a proper theological [Fiqhi] infrastructure for HT but most of them were only interested in solving problems though a political approach. They were rationalists. And look at HT today, more and more they bare a resemblance to the Muslim Council of Britain. The only difference is that the MCB has a grassroots base whereas HT is mostly made up of intellectual ideas

MA: What is your advice to HT?

OBM: They should combine their Daawa [religious and ideological outreach] with the provision of services to the community. They should endeavor to build schools and clinics. This should not replace the struggle for the Khilafah; rather it should reinforce those efforts. This will indicate to all concerned that HT really cares about the affairs of Muslims rather than just contemplating their problems and predicament. HT should remember that Sheikh Taqiuddin Nabhani used to help build wells and generators for villagers. He used to help widows and orphans. They should also pay more attention to the issue of Aqeedah [creed] and develop their Islamic personalities to the fullest extent possible.

MA: Are you calling on HT to adopt Salafi ideas?

OBM: I want them to develop the Salafi Manhaj [method].

MA: What is the future for HT if they continue along this path?

OBM: I believe they will just go round in circles and will not be able to achieve even their minimum objectives.

MA: Going back to your departure from the UK, has the British government harassed you during your stay here in Lebanon?

OBM: As soon as I arrived here the British government applied pressure on Interpol and the Lebanese government to harass me. I was arrested on August 11, 2005 - just a few days after my arrival here - as soon as I finished an interview at Al-Mustaqbal TV station. I was arrested in the middle of the street by Lebanese security who took me away for questioning. The British government asked the Lebanese authorities to prolong my detention with the promise that they would supply them with new information about my activities.

But all they gave them in the end was some unsubstantiated allegations about activities in the UK. This was of no interest to the Lebanese authorities. But the British went further and applied pressure on all foreign embassies in Beirut to deny me visas. Consequently I cannot travel to any country.

MA: So you haven't left Lebanon since your arrival here?

OBM: I only went to Qatar about 11 months ago.

MA: Why did you go there?

OBM: Qatar is friendly to dissidents. I thought I could make a new life there. I was invited there by al-Jazeera for an interview. I used that opportunity to research settling there for good. I made all the arrangements - including putting down a deposit for a house, because once you acquire property there you can apply for citizenship - and then returned to Lebanon to finalize the arrangements. Once I got back the Lebanese, security advised me not to leave the country anymore. Furthermore, al-Jazeera informed me that they could no longer arrange my visa to visit Qatar.

MA: So basically you can't leave Lebanon.

OBM: Not only that, but the Lebanese army has a warrant for my arrest. They accuse me and 73 other brothers of forming al-Qaeda in Lebanon. Some of these brothers are in prison. However, the Lebanese security forces - who unlike the army are pro-[parliamentary majority leader Saad] Hariri - know full well that we have nothing to do with al-Qaeda and they want to cancel this warrant of arrest. Those forces in Lebanon who are close to Iran and Syria accuse us of being al-Qaeda, while those groups who are close to Saudi Arabia and the West, in particular the Hariri faction, want to exonerate us.

MA: Why do you think the Hariri faction supports people like you? Do they want to balance Hezbollah's power?

OBM: They back us because they want to secure Sunni support for their projects and activities.

MA: What are your current activities in Tripoli?

OBM: I am the director of the Iqra Islamic Trust, which is an Islamic and scientific establishment. We have a school, a college and a library for Islamic studies and research. Moreover, we run recreational programs for young Muslims. Furthermore, we stage debates in universities between Muslims and non-Muslims as part of a broader effort to invite non-Muslims to Islam. I also manage the Al-Muhajiroun branch in Beirut.

MA: You have established a Muhajiroun branch here in Lebanon?

OBM: Actually, Al-Muhajiroun operates under the auspices of the Iqra Islamic Trust.

MA: Are you still in regular touch with your students in the UK?

OBM: Of course I am.

MA: Do they travel to Lebanon to visit you?

OBM: Yes, they do but whenever they come here they face questioning both here in Lebanon and in the UK on their return. The then-British foreign secretary Jack Straw signed an agreement with the Lebanese government in 2005 following my arrival here to control my operating environment.

MA: Do you believe al-Qaeda has a presence in Lebanon?

OBM: It is very difficult for al-Qaeda to establish a presence in this country. The Sunnis in Lebanon are traditional Hanafis and as such they have a strong dislike for hardcore Salafi groups like al-Qaeda. Moreover, Lebanon is a very diverse country and the Lebanese are well known for their fierce nationalism. Furthermore, many of the Islamic groups here have strong links to Lebanese intelligence. Practically every sheikh here is connected to the security apparatus, so al-Qaeda would find the security environment here very tough and challenging. I myself have been questioned on no less than 16 occasions by different branches of the Lebanese state on account of information supplied by informants.

MA: Then how do you explain persistent reports in some sections of the Lebanese media alleging an al-Qaeda presence here?

OBM: The pro-Syrian section of the media in Lebanon wants to create a myth of al-Qaeda as part of a broader effort to undermine and embarrass the Lebanese government. The Syrians want to create the impression that the Lebanese government is unable to handle security in this country.

MA: Does al-Qaeda want to establish a presence in Lebanon?

OBM: Sheikh Ayman al-Zawahiri has hinted at this in several of his messages. Al-Qaeda can penetrate Lebanon through the Palestinian camps. There are many hardcore Muslims in these camps who are freelance supporters of al-Qaeda. If al-Qaeda wanted to establish a base in Lebanon then they could adopt these individuals. But I don't believe they have these plans at this moment.

MA: What would be the primary targets for al-Qaeda in Lebanon?

OBM: The UNIFIL [United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon] forces in the south. Moreover, they would extend their war against the United States to here in Lebanon by attacking American targets.

MA: What role would al-Qaeda in Iraq play in this process?

OBM: I believe al-Qaeda in Iraq would play the biggest role in the creation of al-Qaeda in Lebanon, should this become an eventuality. Already there are strong links between hardcore Salafi Muslims in the Palestinian camps with al-Qaeda in Iraq. Some of these individuals have traveled to Iraq to fight alongside al-Qaeda. A few of them have returned already. Al-Qaeda may choose to activate these individuals in due course. But I must stress that all the information we have at present suggests that al-Qaeda has consciously decided against establishing operational bases in Lebanon, at least for the foreseeable future.

(Copyright 2008 Mahan Abedin.)

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