ASIA
TIMES ONLINE EXCLUSIVE Benazir Bhutto's answer to
al-Qaeda
Benazir Bhutto,
daughter of former premier Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, as
leader of the Pakistan People's Party, served as premier
for two terms, 1988-90 and 1993-96, the first term
making her the first female prime minister in the Muslim
world. She currently lives in self-imposed exile. Asia
Times Online's Syed Saleem Shahzadspoke to Mrs Bhutto on a
wide range of topics.
Asia Times Online:
Islamic extremists have called for "death to
America", with no room for compromise. Why has this
extremism emerged now, and not, for instance, during the
Cold War?
Benazir Bhutto: The
slogan "death to America" was, to my knowledge, raised
before Islamic extremists took center stage in global
politics. If I recall correctly, it was used way back in
Latin America during the times of Che Guevara and Pancho
Villa. The slogan is today considered more deadly
because of the events of 9/11. In the past, it was more
a manifestation of anger or resentment among those who
raised such slogans. The events of 9/11 have given it a
less rhetorical content.
During the Cold War the
countries which felt aggrieved used superpower rivalry
to promote their agendas. With the demise of the Soviet
Union, and the rise of Islamic extremists during the
fight against the Soviet occupation [of Afghanistan],
Islamic extremists felt that they could take on the
remaining superpower. It is unlikely that non-state
actors can take on a superpower without being assisted
by another superpower. However, they can cause random
terror, spread insecurity and fear, give birth to a
clash of cultures and religions and create more hatred
and intolerance. This is the real danger. We need to
counter such extremism by promoting unity, tolerance and
respect to different races, religions and genders. In
such moderation lies the harmony and well being of the
world community. Moreover, we need to address unresolved
political issues to prevent extremists from exploiting
them for their own narrow and theocratic ends.
ATol: The US says "you are with us
or against us" - all-out war with no compromise.
Bhutto: The impact of 9/11 was
dramatic and led to a dramatic declaration that either
you are with us or against us. The United States was
struck in its financial and political center - while
Pearl Harbor was on the periphery in comparison. Pearl
Harbor drew the US into World War II. The attacks of
9/11 have drawn it into the war against terror. For some
time, the events of 9/11 will continue to dominate the
agenda of global politics, with the US in the lead.
ATol: The US is fighting a war
against an invisible enemy called al-Qaeda and Osama bin
Laden's International Islamic Front (a loose coalition
of pro-al-Qaeda organizations). What is al-Qaeda in the
real sense? Is there an ideology behind its movement, or
are they just a bunch of militants who are mindlessly in
search of soft US targets to blow up?
Bhutto: Al-Qaeda has managed to
unite disparate militant groups into an international
confederate of terrorists, which is at times is called
the Islamic Front. Often these groups exploit local
tensions, for example the tensions in the Middle East,
the nationalistic feelings of the Chechen people, the
nationalistic opposition to foreign troops in Iraq or
the Kashmir dispute. However, they do have an ideology.
Their real agenda is to use regional political issues to
bring about a theocratic dictatorship similar to the one
that existed in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Gender
discrimination, cultural intolerance, denial of
representation, repression of freedom and subjugation of
the masses to one-man clerical dictatorship is a
negation of humanity's struggle to overcome suffering
and to live in respect and dignity. It is important to
separate the terrorists from the regional issue by
defusing tensions where they exist through political
action.
ATol:There is a theory that Pakistani
President General Pervez Musharraf was the biggest
supporter of al-Qaeda before September 11, 2001. Why and
how did he became the "most trusted" US partner in the
"war on terror"? And does the Pakistani army fully
support him?
Bhutto: It is a
fact that the Musharraf regime was the biggest supporter
of the Taliban, who harbored al-Qaeda, which was
recruiting and training men for terrorism prior to 9/11.
This policy was defended in the name of strategic depth.
I called it "strategic threat" in a speech I gave
in parliament calling for the breaking of ties with
the Taliban in 1998. According to a book by Bob
Woodward, the Bush administration asked Musharraf to stand up
and be counted as friend or foe. Since he gave a
positive answer in one telephone call, they decided to work
with him. It was more convenient for Washington to work
with someone stating he was prepared to play ball than
bring about a change at a time of immense crisis.
Washington has managed to squeeze concessions out of
Musharraf. There is a US base in Pakistan, the FBI [US
Federal Bureau of Investigation] are allowed to operate
[in Pakistan] and through electronic "transepts"
have captured some big fish. Musharraf in turn has been
able to use the relationship to buy time during which
the Taliban (either deliberately or inadvertently) have
been able to regroup. He has also cleverly held out
the promise of the capture of a high-value target -
read Osama bin Laden or [Taliban leader] Mullah Omar -
during the US presidential-election year.
The Pakistan
army is a disciplined force. It may be unhappy having to
kill civilians in search of terrorists in the tribal
areas, but it does what it is ordered to do through its
chain of command. There have been isolated incidents
that demonstrate a lack of support, namely in the two
assassination attempts [last year] against Musharraf,
and some other incidents. However, this kind of
isolated, junior-level activity is not new. It has
occurred in the past during the Attock Conspiracy case
of the 1970s [to overthrow Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's
government] and the Islamic Brotherhood attempt to
overthrow the democratic government in the 1990s.
By involving the military in civilian affairs
and scandals ... as well as political persecution, the
impartiality of the armed forces and its professionalism
has been made subject to public controversy. It is this
controversial political role that would make most
professional officers uncomfortable.
ATol: The US invasion of Iraq, in
the name of creating a civil society and a liberal
democracy in the Middle East, has instead promoted
fundamentalist trends, especially in Iraq itself, which
had been a tolerant secular society but is now a
fundamentalist hotbed where private Shi'ite and Sunni
militias rule the roost.
Bhutto:
There were two plans: one for the overthrow of the
Saddam Hussein regime and the second for a postwar
order. The first worked and the second did not. The
consequences are before us. It's a tragedy to see
Muslims divided on sectarian lines. It's important for
Muslims to unite and dissent on political rather than
religious issues.
ATol:
Previously, Islamic fundamentalist parties could
not make headway in elections, now they are emerging as
a challenge in countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan,
Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia.
Bhutto:
Extremist and fundamentalist political parties
have never been able to score any significant political
victories in countries like Pakistan. In fact, if the
past record is any guide, it is clear that the extremist
parties were never voted into power or even brought
close to it by the people. The extremists rose under the
dictatorship of General Zia ul-Haq in Pakistan. The
religious parties [Muttahhida Majlis-e-Amal] formed a
government for the first time [in North West Frontier
Province] under General Musharraf's dictatorship.
It is dictatorship that leads to the rise of
extremist groups. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey,
Malaysia, Indonesia, etc are all countries that share a
background of long periods of military or authoritarian
rule. The best defense against extremism and terrorism
is the promotion of freedom, human dignity, rule of law,
tolerance and pluralism. The present marginalization of
moderate political parties in Pakistan can cause
blow-back in time. There is a political vacuum in
Pakistan which is dangerous to the future.
ATol: There is an extreme feeling
of dissent within religious political parties, which is
further giving birth to more extreme notions. Jihadi
organizations are one manifestation, but there is a very
strong opinion flourishing in the shape of Hizbut
Tehrir-like organizations, which has taken strong roots
in Central Asia and is silently taking root in Pakistan.
Unlike religious-political parties, they do not believe
in democracy at all. What is the perspective of these
trends?
Bhutto: During the days of
fighting the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan [1980s], a
military dictator in Pakistan [Zia] used religious
parties to recruit fighters. He used money to set up
religious schools whose real purpose was to indoctrinate
young men into becoming robots. Since he was associated
with the Muslim Brotherhood, he used those links to
bring together members of the Muslim Brotherhood from
different parts of the world. They were brainwashed into
believing that after defeating the Soviet Union, they
could take on the other superpower, namely America. They
were never told that the success against the Soviets was
because it was a proxy war with international backing.
These indoctrinated elements were patronized in the
military, security, civilian and political structure of
Pakistan. They believe that Islam came to Pakistan
through the shores of Central Asia and can now be
exported to Europe through Central Asia. Hence we see
the cells operating in that area.
I believe that
both my governments were destabilized by these forces.
The Pakistan People's Party and I posed the most potent
threat to them. We gave an alternative vision of
freedom, human rights, modernity compatible with
religion as well as progress and prosperity. Pakistan,
under the PPP, was an example of a moderate, enlightened
and modern democracy to 1 billion Muslims at the
crossroads having to choose between the past and the
future. These elements prefer Musharraf to the PPP.
Musharraf is a military dictator and is not an
ideological alternative to them. They have scuttled all
attempts at rapprochement between the army led by
Musharraf and the people led by the PPP. This is why
some sections of the media have speculated that
Islamabad could be seized by a combine of
religio-political-military elements. I do not believe
that this nightmare scenario is possible because I
believe that the restoration of democracy can turn the
wheel of disaster into one of opportunity for the people
of Pakistan - and the wider world community.
Previously, the religious parties were used to
help recruit militants. With the passage of two decades,
the militant cells are becoming more independent of the
religious parties. While they take their spiritual
mentoring from the religious parties, their
organizational structures are cellular and independent.
But there is a real danger today. Disillusioned with
military dictatorship and unable to express
disillusionment through a fair electoral process, the
danger is of the radicalization of the masses. This
disillusionment provides a perfect breeding ground for
extremist organizations. That was why in Pakistan,
parties that are sympathetic to the Taliban and al-Qaeda
claim that neither democracy nor military dictatorship
works and that theocratic rule should be given a chance.
Thus, when people are denied the democratic model of
development, they can choose a system that is even worse
than military dictatorship.
ATol:
Why have secular forces in Muslim societies
failed to contain fundamentalism?
Bhutto: Most secular forces were
kept out of government during the Cold War by military
or authoritarian rulers lacking grass-root support and
legitimacy. Since authoritarianism and dictatorship
rested on force rather than on law, it gave birth to a
culture of lawlessness and extremism. We need to have
democracy in the Muslim world and we need to spend more
on education and human development to contain the forces
of extremism.
ATol: Where
do liberation movements such as those in Palestine and Kashmir
stand?
Bhutto: The armed struggle
of the people of Palestine and Kashmir and others under
occupation received a setback following the events of
9/11. Now there is zero tolerance for armed struggle.
However, the causes of unrest are political and the
search for a solution will continue through peaceful
avenues.
Syed Saleem Shahzad is Bureau
Chief, Pakistan, Asia Times Online. He can be reached at
saleem_shahzad2002@yahoo.com.
(Copyright 2004 Asia Times Online Ltd. All
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spoke to Mrs Bhutto on a
wide range of topics. 
