Page 2 of
2 INTERVIEW Anwar Ibrahim Anwar
to Abdullah: It's nothing
personal By Ioannis
Gatsiounis
adapt accordingly. Your
understanding of the policies or the economy, your
assumptions that you can decouple easily, knowing
that it's not realistic.
Okay, I'm very
passionate about working with and helping the
poor. [But] you realize that without growth and
competitiveness, you will not have the resources,
which means you have to have a market-friendly
economy and other things - reforms - before you
can assist and elevate the living conditions of
the poor ... I think [the government] has failed
on both counts, attempting to propel the economy
but ignoring the plight of the poor.
ATol: You are now
articulating a much more democratic agenda
than
what you did when you were in the United Malays
Nasional Organization (UMNO)-led government. Did
you have some epiphany that democratic principles
are important for development?
AI: Of course you can
articulate your position more freely now. But if
you look at my position - freedom of democracy and
empowerment and support for an independent
judiciary are there. So I don't think it's quite
correct to suggest that these are only thoughts
[I'm having] now. But then you articulate, you
craft in a different manner, because of the
constraints of the media.
ATol: A letter writer to a
politics and culture website recently commented
that your "faction within UMNO was remembered
[even] by UMNO members as one of the most
aggressive ... and deeply feared". How do you
respond?
AI: Aggressive,
yes. We were looking to achieve reform. For
instance, I introduced this anti-corruption bill.
It was immensely unpopular among the UMNO leaders.
Not [just] UMNO supporters, but ministers for that
matter ... I looked at the Hong Kong Independent
Commission Against Corruption. There's a provision
that if you are deemed to be corrupt even after 10
years in office - that you benefited while you
were in power - they can go after you. That
provision was strongly opposed to.
ATol: I think, though, what
the letter writer meant by "aggressive" was
intimidating.
AI: That's the
first time I'm hearing this. I was [part of] the
more liberal wing of the government. It's quite
known. For example, I engaged the Bar Council at
the time [former premier] Mahathir [Mohamad] was
fighting [them]. When there was a huge protest
over the Baku dam, I allowed them to come in and
discussed it with them. When the draft bill was
tabled in cabinet, I faxed the draft to the
opposition leader the moment I got it, which had
never happened in the past.
ATol: Some people say Islam
has begun to play too central a role in Malaysian
life. Do you agree and what would you do to revise
matters?
AI: It depends on
how you perceive this. The super-liberal wing of
the public would want to have nothing to do with
Islam. And you have an extremely conservative wing
that wants to dictate. So I don't share either
view. But then we have to sort it out.
You
have to engage them, allow them to articulate
their views. So I think for a person to suggest in
Malaysia - to deny the role of religion and Islam
- I don't share that view. Where I think we draw
the line is when it comes to compelling people, or
not allowing non-Muslims to use the civil courts.
That's unheard of in our 50 years.
ATol: Obviously there is
increased tension between the races with religion
playing a part. What as a leader would you do to
defuse the situation?
AI: I
am opposed if a group for example wants to compel
others to Islam, [or] if you apostatize you should
be shot. And the other view says religion should
have no role whatsoever; we should do away with
the religious court. I also disagree with that. I
think the consensus among Muslims is that the
sharia court should be confined to Muslim personal
law and Muslim affairs.
The problem is
when you use this legislation to compel ... to
deny non-Muslims to bring their cases to the civil
courts, because finally the issue of faith is a
personal issue. I am a Muslim. I believe in Islam.
I don't rejoice in hearing that people are leaving
Islam, but I think finally it is his or her
personal decision. It is beyond me and I don't
think we should politicize that further.
ATol: The prime minister's
son-in-law and UMNO deputy youth chief Khairy
Jamaluddin recently branded you as an agent of the
Jews and the United States. There are reportedly
pictures of you and [former US deputy defense
secretary] Paul Wolfowitz being disseminated in
the villages. Could this be damaging to you
politically?
AI: It could.
But look ... I say yes, I'm a friend of the Jews.
I am a friend of the Chinese, a friend of the
Muslims. Where is the problem? The Iraq war - I am
against it. There are many Americans, including
Jews, who are against the Iraq war.
ATol: But anti-Semitism and
anti-Americanism run deep in Malaysia. It's maybe
not as vocal as in some other places, but there is
a great deal of ignorance and fear. And UMNO has
the machinery to fan the flames. What are you
doing to combat it?
AI: It
does [run deep], it's ignorance, and it's been
[reinforced] by leaders. Mahathir did it ... and
this is dangerous. I did address [the
allegations], but in the last few months I have
not because I asked some religious leaders and
they said [only] a small number of people are
being influenced by this and they said I don't
need to respond. So I have moved on ... We are
taking a civil suit against Khairy on that
allegation.
ATol: Some
people say you haven't been very critical of the
prime minister. This has led to speculation that
you may one day attempt to rejoin UMNO. Why
haven't you been more critical?
AI: I have nothing personal
against him.
ATol: But this
is the election season. Don't you need to use
everything within the capacity of the law at this
point to end the BN's two-thirds parliamentary
majority?
AI: If I have
evidence, I present it. But with Abdullah there is
incompetence ... He gives a multi-billion ringgit
contract to his son to build a monorail in Penang
without tender. He gives a 25 billion ringgit
development approval for Patrick Lim, his crony in
Penang. These things are being said.
But
to make personal attacks, I refuse. But it's wrong
for them to say I haven't been critical. You say
the leadership is incompetent, you say that under
Abdullah we have been less competitive
economically, that corruption has become more
endemic, crime rates have increased - all under
Abdullah. I have done that, made major criticisms
of him. But to go [down the road of personal
attacks], well [Abdullah] sleeps all the time, why
is he married to this [new foreign wife] Jeanne? I
don't go there.
Ioannis
Gatsiounis, a New York native, is a Kuala
Lumpur-based writer.
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