Apropos of
Spengler's Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture [Dec 16], I took the trouble to read through
his voluminous contributions to Asia Times [Online] and
found no evidence whatsoever that the pompous Spengler
is capable of laughing at himself. Is he an American? I
wonder. Criton M Zoakos (Dec 24, '03)
Spengler's
vapid, empty essay Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture [Dec 16] is mistitled. A better headline
would read: Why no one can laugh at American culture.
After all, the whole premise of Spengler's remarks is
that American culture suffers from having "no there,
there". And in that, he's almost entirely correct. I'm
reminded of a local discussion I watched on [television]
in the 1970s featuring the mayors of three or four small
Texas towns. One mayor from a town in north Texas
sparked an uproar by observing that while west Texas
might be scenic, it often lost out on the tourist dollar
because it had no culture - to which the mayor of Fort
Stockton in west Texas replied, "That ain't true at all;
in fact, when it comes to culture we west Texans are the
first hogs to the trough." I do think that Spengler is
off the mark in claiming that American's can't laugh at
American culture solely based on letters sent to Asia
Times [Online]. Spengler should go back in history and
look into the origins of the classic tune from the
Revolutionary War, "Yankee Doodle Dandy". Back then, the
British claimed that Americans were such dolts they'd
think anything from Italy was fashionable. So the Yanks
sang "stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni"
in self-parody, and to stick it to the supercilious
British. More seriously, Ronald Reagan got it precisely
right when he observed that America and Americans are
unique among nations, and cultures, because of our
openness. To be French, German or Japanese, one really
needs to have been born there. But to be American, you
just have to get to America and believe in it.
Anarchus (Dec 22,
'03)
I am an
American reader of your online edition and found this a
very interesting article [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. I think there are some very
disturbing reasons we American's can't laugh at
ourselves. American culture is often described as a
great soup in which immigrant minorities are absorbed
and blended into a majority paste. I think it is more of
a chemical brew of inflammable materials only subdued by
the head pressure of a satisfied materialism. If the
head pressure of economic growth is ever removed and the
country is allowed to descend into the poverty of
another Great Depression, all hell will break loose. The
country will splinter along tribal lines and bring great
tragedy. I think most Americans are subconsciously aware
of our hypocrisy. But as long as we can continue to feel
good about ourselves by buying bargains or living the
grand illusion of the good life, we will shy away from
poking fun [at] what this culture is all about - the
pursuit of happiness. Mark Twain said that in American
culture you cannot escape three things: race, hypocrisy
and corruption. This article is very much linked to Pepe
Escobar's The Rat Trap Part 1: How Saddam may still nail Bush, [Dec
19]. If the American people could stop the binge
consumption long enough to analyze where our leaders
have taken us, many things here [in America] would
change. The latest scourge, obesity, is a fair
reflection of American culture. Richard Brown
(Dec 19,
'03)
Spengler, an obnoxious
columnist for Asia Times Online, tells us Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture [Dec 16]: "Consider American humor in
general: a tell-tale trait of it is the absence of
'American' jokes, that is, jokes about Americans as
such. Americans tell ethnic jokes, regional jokes, or
generic jokes. But there are no characteristically
American jokes, for the simple reason that there are no
American characteristics." Well, you wouldn't think that
a terribly deep observation, but Spengler makes much of
it: "They laugh at themselves as individuals, but cannot
laugh at themselves as a people. One cannot laugh at
what one cannot define, and definition is the essence of
humor; it is the flash of unexpected recognition that
evokes laughter. In post-modern usage, humor is
essentialist, or to say the same thing, post-modernism
is humorless." Got that? Spengler's problem, it appears,
is that the US has no national traits that can be
codified into a rich and amusing set of observations and
traits. That makes us [Americans] hard to categorize, I
guess, and that seems to bother him. For us, of course,
that those traits don't exist reflects our great
strength of diversity. The US is anything but
homogeneous: we are the natural home of every race,
ethnic group and religion on the face of the Earth, so
we embody not just a few but every cultural trait. We're
kind of like the first citizens of the world, so to
speak. So yeah, we do drive slowly in the fast lane
(actually, there's a whole Zen of highway driving in the
US, well worth a whole essay), our tea sucks (no
argument), our wine's okay but French is better -
Italian better still - and they ruin all of them with
sulfites. But we have culture. BL Briggs (Dec 19,
'03)
This website is a staple of my
daily news diet, thanks to its informative and
well-designed content. I am also what measures as
"centrist" on the American political register - so it's
with a comfortably thick skin that I tolerate and
forgive the amusing devotion to the anti-American bias I
must wade through until I find something informative in
the midst of what passes for "analysis". I am not urging
you to change what must certainly be a more profitable
attitude in tune with your demographically average
reader, but I do imagine it must be a little
demoralizing in your corner of journalism to sacrifice
professional standards for the consumer demand of
ideological propaganda. No doubt a great attraction to
the field of foreign affairs for most of you was surely
its complexity that defies any simplification into
ideology. So, with respect, I suggest a perspective upon
observations made in the essay by Spengler Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture [Dec 16]. The author's insights into
the nature of the "melting pot" are not far off the
mark. But where this chaotic crucible of cultural
evolution leaves us lacking in many broad national
traits to mock for centuries at a time, the implications
are far different than the author concludes. We are, of
course, in a cultural civil war at all times, and it is
the culture of diversity which is America's unique (and
ultimately successful) export unto the world. Most
certainly America will continue to learn the hard way on
many a thing we could have avoided from a longer memory
and sight beyond the borders of our oceans. But America
is the evolutionary frontier of human culture, and it
succeeds, peacefully, at an accelerating pace like
nowhere else on the planet at any time. With such a
committed marriage to the essence of social chaos,
attempting to predict America's tragedies in the future
is a tragic fool's errand. Niles Caulder (Dec 19,
'03)
If his
first work, What is American culture?, Nov 18,
crushed beneath the weight of its own incredulity, my
advice to Spengler would have been: "spare us the
sequel" [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. However, now that I am aware
that these are self-admitted works of comedy, I am
relieved and was able to enjoy a good laugh at myself.
How could I miss that the initial article was a joke?
Obviously, the fact that Americans chew tobacco
(although I have yet to meet one who does) or drink weak
tea is not relevant within the context of America's
encounter with Islam. It seems the humor of these
articles is that they attempt to paint with a broad
brush of generalizations what American culture is or is
not, and then end in the final paragraph with a
political statement that is supposedly supported by the
previous assertions. What makes the humor especially
good is that in the case of both articles, not only do
the conclusions not find any support from the
assertions, but the assertions are themselves inaccurate
or unknowledgeable with respect to the subject. That
said, I would like to assure Spengler that Americans can
take a joke. If not, why would we come back to read your
second article? However, we are able to recognize
poppycock when we read it. To Spengler, or others who
might have an interest, I suggest reading A Brief
History of American Culture by Robert M Crunden.
This book might be helpful in your struggle to
understand the foundations of America's national
culture. There are some ways in which American culture
is uniquely diverse and cosmopolitan. Discovering what
American culture is begins by investigating the umbrella
under which each of these diverse populations have
chosen to seat themselves. A statement like "America
cannot understand the culture of other nations, because
it has no culture of its own" could be easily turned and
argued that "America is uniquely able to understand the
culture of other nations, because it has assimilated
groups from each of them". [Spengler] suggests that "not
to have a national culture is both a blessing and a
curse". I suggest that the conclusion, "there is no
national culture", is premature, and that it would be
good for readers to examine some source material (ie do
some historical reading and thinking) before accepting
erroneous, politically motivated statements and
conclusions based upon an assertion/premise the article
does not give adequate support to. Is America
under-equipped to fight a civilizational/cultural war?
That is a question for legitimate debate - a debate that
unfortunately does not find much useful fodder in either
of Spengler's pieces. Can the "quest for freedom", in
its various forms, trump historical cultural
considerations of thousands of years? Can there be
accommodation? Let the debate begin in earnest. To
Spengler, come on over next Fourth of July, we'll put
some hamburgers and hot dogs on the grill, debate world
culture and continue the fireworks later that
evening. Jonah Cal Chicago, Illinois (Dec 18, '03)
In
response to Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16: Every aspect of "American culture"
is tainted by the military - from our [Americans]
combat-armed domestic police, to our movies, to our
video games, to our "infotainment" news. Everywhere you
look, the military is worshipped - and this has been [a
part of] US history since the first settlers killed the
indigenous natives. There's ROTC [Reserve Officer
Training Corps] in our schools, high-powered salesmen
[who] sell the military life to high school children,
and GI Joe dolls for boys - not to mention an amazing
variety of war toys for toddlers on up. War heroes,
veterans groups, military bases, military schools and
even the boy scouts [are] based on a military mindset.
Now, even women are embraced, in propaganda, if not in
the [military] services themselves. The one pervasive
thread throughout American history is war - [there's]
always a war somewhere. Even our social programs are
described in military parlance: the "war on poverty" and
the "war on drugs", and now the "war on terrorism".
Americans are infatuated with war and everything
military. Jeeps, Humvees, air shows, etc. Nearly every
progressive development in this country has been funded
by the military - adaptation for civilian use is
secondary. Even music, from marches to patriotic songs,
[is based on] more military. Sports are heavily slanted
toward military war games - the "us" against "them"
rivalry of teams - [and] all are taken seriously. If
there is one thing that is purely American, it is this
obsession with war and militarized society. That is the
culture of America. And it's nothing to laugh
about. Kathy Kutner USA (Dec 18, '03)
In regard to
American culture, after reading the articles on this
topic [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16, and What is American culture?, Nov 18], I
see that the person writing these articles knows very
little of what he is talking about, and [he] seems very
prejudiced toward Americans. If this author had ever
spent any real time in America, he would know that
America is not made up of any one specific culture. Let
me ask you this: what is an American? Is an American a
white Caucasian who sits in front of his television and
drives his Caddy and has an attitude that Americans are
superior to all others, as your articles seem to
present? An American is the Filipino woman that I
married. An American is the French family down the
street and the Chinese, Japanese, Polish, German,
Russian, Indian and all the other culturally rich people
who [have settled in the United States] that make
America great. It seems to me as though the author of
your articles only wants to bash Americans. And as far
as us Americans not knowing what kind of culture we
have, you have no idea what you're talking about.
America is the most culturally rich nation in the
world. B Harrison (Dec
18, '03)
This article [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16] demonstrates that the author lacks
even a small rudimentary knowledge of American culture.
America is forever laughing at itself with the likes of
Johnny Carson, and currently Jay Leno, David Letterman,
Saturday Night Live and a host of other such
shows. As for our culture, just the tip of the iceberg
includes the likes of [Henry David] Thoreau and [Ralph
Waldo] Emerson. It is so easy to criticize and so hard
to be a real creator. Spengler knows nothing of the real
America. Tracey Darrolle (Dec 18, '03)
In Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16, Spengler thankfully honors his
irate French readers by writing that "among the
Europeans, only the French cannot laugh at their high
culture". One could argue now if high culture should -
or should not - include inhalation and if the French are
indeed "Europeans" (whatever that is). But I just
recommend [that] Spengler take a deep breath and read
the works of [Lowell ] Boileau, Voltaire, Alfred Jarry,
Raymond Queneau, Boris Vian, etc. Jean-Saul
Partre Monte Carlo, Europe (Dec 17, '03)
I'm not a huge
fan of Spengler's writing, but he seems to have hit the
nail on the head this time [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. Those who wrote to hurl insults
for being teased about their cultural quirks have no
understanding of culture in general. Why don't Americans
recognize [American culture]? They're shallow, they wear
blinders and they're so busy sucking up to the
propagandistic belief of "everything American is good"
and "everything elsewhere is not as good" that they
can't begin to comprehend culture in general. Americans
can't laugh at themselves because they believe a joke
aimed at them is insulting. In this age of political
correctness, Americans become offended at ethnic jokes
instead of recognizing that stereotypes exist because,
well, because we [Americans] are stereotypical. We
Americans, for the most part, are followers and no
longer explorers. I'm a poor man living in a foreign
country. My mother once told me I will never marry again
because I have nothing to offer - no Cadillac, no
stocks, no country-club membership. This is how
Americans see and measure life - by what we accumulate
rather than by what we experience. I've known people
(including myself) who have lived without telephones and
televisions and charge cards, and the reaction from
their peers at their refusal to own these items is not
one of surprise, but one of fear. This is threatening,
not to be part of what the rest are part of. Only 13
percent of Americans have passports, and to the majority
of Americans, vacationing (not traveling) "overseas"
means going to Toronto or Vancouver for a weekend, or
perhaps to the Bahamas for a slightly longer "trip". And
of course the media, travel magazines, news and cable
channels and so on make Americans feel that other
cultures are so very, very different that most Americans
want to close their eyes and picture the future mall on
the newly paved road from Kandahar to Kabul rather than
camels and beggars. Americans have no concept of what
culture is, no way to define it, and therefore will
never recognize their own. As well, sucking up to the
Bushism "with us or against us" philosophy, Americans
sit back soaking up a superiority complex that prevents
them from ever having a desire to know other
cultures. The Hermit An expat living
happily in Thailand (Dec 17,
'03)
Spengler is absolutely right [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. We [America] are a country without
a culture. I think we had one when I was growing up
(late Depression and World War II). It was a
post-frontier, post-Civil War culture. My friends and I
knew people (or knew of people) who had come across the
country in covered wagons, or had fought in the civil
war, or who had been born slaves or fought in the Indian
wars. I'm not saying these things were good, but [only]
that we knew who and what we were. From the late 1950s
through the 1970s [America] went through free speech,
anti-war, the Civil Rights movement, the women's-rights
movement, free love and a drug subculture. We didn't
trust anyone over [the age of] 30. This was followed by
the technological and Internet revolution, and while
much of that was good, much was nothing more than a
total rejection of pre-1960s culture. We have [now]
metamorphosed into a country so politically correct that
we can't laugh at anything. In addition, we've had so
much immigration, and it's happened so rapidly, that the
post-frontier, post-Civil War culture of my childhood is
meaningless to most residents (or citizens). I realize
rapid change and wholesale immigration are facts of life
in an age of globalization, but at least most of the
countries you mentioned (except Australia) had hundreds
of years of history before the influx. Maybe we
[Americans] didn't have a long enough history (culture)
to survive the impact. FarSideGal (Dec 17,
'03)
Spengler, I like your blog
[Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. But I don't think you've spent
much time in America. Let's see, England has
Shakespeare, Italy has Dante and Spain has Cervantes. So
who has America produced? How about [George] Washington,
[Thomas] Jefferson, and [James] Madison as a trio; or
[Abraham] Lincoln, who is the equal of all three
together and arguably the greatest modern man - to say
nothing of being the first standup comic in history. And
while [America's] high literary culture may not be up to
England's, we did somehow produce the greatest lyric
poet since Shakespeare, you know the guy, Tom
what's-his-name from Missouri. And if Chevy Chase and
John Belushi aren't making fun of America, what are they
making fun of? Or how about [Stanley] Kubrick's Dr
Strangelove? Or all of Tom Wolfe's [works]? Oh shut
up Spengler; you're just pulling our legs. Luke
Lea (Dec 17,
'03)
Honored though I am to be
included in Spengler's list of Americans who can't laugh
at themselves [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16], I have wrongly been labeled a
Yank. I may have written about baseball statistics from
New York, but had Spengler examined my letter closely,
the spelling gave the game away. Like Sting: "I don't
drink coffee, I take tea my dear. I like my toast done
on one side, and you can hear it in my accent when I
talk ..." The best thing for Spengler the America-hater
to do would be to get himself a job over here [in
America] and see America for himself. He might swallow
some of his prejudice (I know I did). In the meantime,
for biting American satire, check out
www.onion.com. Will Hawkes Englishman in
New York (Dec 17,
'03)
First of all, thank you
for referring to my comparison of Annie Hall to
Moliere. Now, turning to your latest [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. [Spengler's] proposition that
Americans can't laugh at American culture from the
inside is easily refuted by two words: The
Simpsons. For backup evidence, I suggest The
Daily Show with Jon Stewart, which may be more
difficult to come by outside the US but in some ways is
even more coruscating in its humor. In literature, I'd
recommend Mason and Dixon by Thomas Pynchon as a
profoundly great laugh at American culture, and a
profoundly sad take on it as well. As for your point
that no one can agree about exactly what American
culture is so therefore there isn't any, I fail to see
the logic. [Herman] Melville, [Noam] Chomsky, [Charlie]
Parker, [Duke] Ellington, [Dashiell] Hammett, [Raymond]
Chandler and [Saul] Bellow all define American culture.
As would a list 10 times as long. No single American
defines American culture any more than a single
Frenchman does. [Jean] Cocteau, Moliere, [Claude]
Debussy, [Pierre] Boulez, as well as (heaven forgive the
French) [Jacques] Lacan, [Jacques] Derrida, and the
horrible [Victor] Hugo all hold equally disparate views.
If Americans have yet to come up with a playwright as
great as Shakespeare, well, neither have the British in
the past 250 years. Clearly, you don't like American
culture, or perhaps you agree with a paraphrase of
[Mahatma] Gandhi's about Western civilization: that
American culture sounds like a good idea. Fair enough. I
don't like a lot of it either. And I would be the first
to agree with you that any culture that produced [US
President] George W Bush or took Leo Strauss seriously
can't be all good. But the world has been immensely
enriched because Robert Johnson sang the blues, and
because he was recorded by some white folks. Both the
songs and their recording are quintessential artifacts
of American culture. Put another way, any definition of
art and culture that includes Wolfgang [Amadeus] Mozart
and Isaac Newton but has no room for John Coltrane and
Richard Feynman is simply useless. And vice versa. A
corollary: To make qualitative comparisons between such
examples of genius is an exercise in futility. Which is
not to say that one cannot make worthwhile
discriminations. But many of the older premises and the
consequent framing of issues that, in Western discourse,
defined what great art is [and] what great culture is,
are in many ways inadequate today, given the enormous
widening of the Western perspective on the world. If
postmodernism is inadequate as a framework to approach
these subjects, neither are older frames. [Composer
Gustav] Mahler once opined: "There is no music but
German music." Today, hopefully, most educated people
would take that as an example of how even a great artist
can be provincial in his taste. [To say that] "there is
no genuine (insert country/ethnic group here) culture"
is equally provincial, even if gratifying in some way to
those who are uninterested, don't like, feel assaulted
by, or are incapable of grasping that group's culture.
In the meantime, I'd suggest a few listens to the
complete Robert Johnson before writing off American
cultural achievement as a hopeless task. Richard
Einhorn New York, New York (Dec 16, '03)
I found [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16] to be an entertaining article,
though Spengler's literary judgment is questionable; the
"great American novel" was Lolita, which nobody
bothers to read anymore. I did become slightly alarmed,
however, when I noticed that I and my countrymen are
being portrayed as corn-fed ignoramuses. No complaint
here, because many of us are. And my resentment isn't so
great that I would ask for a disclaimer on the essay. I
do think Spengler is guilty, in the manner of the late
Edward Said, of inflating the significance of his
observations, in this case to the point that they
"prove" Americans cannot understand other cultures, yet
[claims that] critics can understand American culture.
Spengler should engage the question of why other
cultures are so enthusiastic about the US, not as a
political entity of course, but a cultural one. Also,
the claim that an august (invariably male) writer from
medieval times testifies to a strong cultural "glue" is
faulty; I would venture that any number of atrocious
American musicians, eg Madonna, exert a greater
influence on the hearts and minds of today's Italians
than does Dante. Sad, but probably true. Falling back on
the established canon to make subversive cultural
points, a la Said, is a transparent gambit on the
part of Spengler, who seems preoccupied with showing
that he's read a little and been a few places. His
shallow intellectualism fails to impress. Miles H
Lewcey Chicago, Illinois (Dec 16, '03)
In reference to
Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16: I do know one laugh-at-the-US joke:
"What do you call someone that knows three languages?
Tri-lingual. What do you call someone that knows two
languages? Bi-lingual. What do you call someone that
knows one language? A-merican." And all of those jokes
quoted in the article: they all apply to Americans
because we [Americans] are but a mix of all those races
and more. We are nothing but a reflection of the world
that surrounds and created us. To say that we don't
laugh at our own culture is to ignore television
preachers, Republicans (not terribly funny), fat
[people], the media, etc. We laugh plenty,
pal. Jim Graf USA (Dec 16, '03)
I thought the
Spengler article [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16] was very thought-provoking.
Needless to say, I am not American. My own impression is
that Americans can't laugh at their culture because for
them there is nothing valid outside it. To define
something, one must, at least hypothetically, separate
oneself from it. But how can one do this when dealing
with the universal? It has no "outside". For the same
reason, Americans live in a perpetual present, the past
and the future being indistinguishable from the present
(except for variations in fashion). At the risk of being
vulgar, it all comes down to political economy, or at
least it can't be separated therefrom; viz, American
"culture" or lack thereof is inseparable from the role
and position of the United States in the global economy.
Robert Spenceley (Dec
16, '03) Toronto, Ontario
Although I am not certain if I agree
entirely with Spengler's views [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16], at least it is true that America
is a nation without culture. And again, this is
something that Americans should not take as an insult.
There is no good or bad to it. It is a fact. People have
been coming to America to "lose themselves", to fuse in
the melting pot that America is; they have been coming
to make money. People who wanted culture, and who had
culture, didn't have to leave hearth and home, as
Spengler pointed out in his previous article [What is American culture?, Nov 18].
Jokes aside, I think what Spengler has ignored is the
fact that any culture grows, mellows and comes of age
only through introspection of itself, which is a crucial
step in identifying oneself and is necessary not just
for cultures or nations, but even for individuals.
Sadly, Americans do not have this quality, their minds
[are] too distracted with more mundane things. It is
noteworthy that the US has not produced any philosophers
in [more than] two centuries of existence. Compare this
to other cultures [that] have [produced] names like
Bertrand Russell, [Franz] Kafka, [Friedrich] Nietzsche,
Confucius, Archimedes, Socrates, Plato, [Fyodor]
Dostoevsky and [Leo] Tolstoy. The list goes on. It is
also noteworthy to see that [Americans] have always had
pretenders to high culture, from time to time epitomized
by the Great Gatsby of the Jazz Age. Unfortunately,
their lives are mired in the detritus of conformity and
crass materialism, which discourages individuality and
individual thought. Festivals in the rest of the world
are festivals. In the US, festivals are merely a horde
of sales, nothing more, just as a college education is
merely four years of drinking. [American] writers who
write such poignant prose are read much more widely
outside the US than inside, be it [Ernest] Hemingway,
[John] Steinbeck or Saul Bellow. The thinking man is
always the outsider. This mentality, coupled with a
reluctance to break free of the dichotomy of love and
hate, us and them, black and white, good and evil; and
the inability to accept and assimilate contradictions
along with a lack of sensitivity to other people's
culture has put [Americans] in the position where the
entire world carries the image of the rude American, the
American bully, the uncouth [Americans] as they would
put it. In reality, the world does not "hate" Americans,
it detests US imperialism and abhors George W Bush and
his cowboy tactics. One is tempted to ask: "Do the
Americans see no difference between their nation and
their government?" Vivek (Dec 16, '03)
I enjoyed the
Spengler article [Why Americans can't laugh at American
culture, Dec 16]. The closing line regarding
"our" [Americans] being ill-equipped to fight a
cultural (civilization) war is what caused me to
respond. For whatever reason, when I was young I became
interested in other cultures. I heard "his-stories" and
"her-stories". I double-checked and questioned the
generic versions of culture often promoted. I ended up
thinking I'd become a "cross-culturist" of sorts, that
is, one who is really not happy without knowing and
involving myself in the cultures and subcultures of
others. I often think the American world view is much
like you described. Inwardly, we are "antique
collectors". We save and cherish individual memories of
our past cultural indoctrinations (ethnic, national,
religious). Outwardly, we're cultural anarchists -
explorers, pioneers, futurists - busy reinventing
ourselves to fit into the imagined "emerging" new
culture, [and] busy forgetting who we are as we strive
to become. I fear the "bull in the China shop" is best
equipped to fight the cultural war and lose the cultural
peace. Tim Soggs (Dec
16, '03)
Dec 17, 2003
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